Polluter Scooters

Polluter Scooters
Your comparison should be that old 2-stroke scooter vs. a 1968 Ford Truck, not a newer engine. To be more fair, there are many newer Japanese scooters that are 4-stroke fuel-injected models which would fair much better. Also, do not forget the masses ... how many of these scoots compared to SUV's are on the road? It would not be hard to make scoots extremely clean, but first we need positive movements to get the public to understand how much of a benefit smaller vehicles can be on our roads ... not only in pollution, but also in fuel savings (less dependence on foreign oil suppliers) and reduced traffic congestion. I ride my bicycle three times a week and I can honestly say that when an old truck goes by I can hardly inhale with the heavy fumes ... the few little 2-stroke scooters going by do not have the same immediate effect.
—Sean

Polluter Scooters
Two-stroke owners are going to have a tough time frequently changing our oil since we burn it. I pour in a new liter every 700 miles - but I don't take out the old, as it's burned up.
—Tom

Polluter Scooters
Even better: bicycles. No unburned hydrocarbons, but I do emit carbon dioxide as I ride.
—Ferdinand

Polluter Scooters
Okay, but consider this: I can travel 300 miles on 4 gallons of fuel in a scooter, while the SUV travels 300 miles on almost 20 gallons(and that's not even counting 8-mpg Hummers!); the SUV is using 5 times as much fuel to travel the same distance, and you must multiply the emissions by the fuel inefficiency for a more accurate comparison of per-mile traveled emissions.
—Jacquelyn

Polluter Scooters
You are idiots. PPM means parts per million, i.e. the percentage of hydrocarbons in the exhaust, not the total amount.

Your writer seems to think that a 7-liter SUV engine exhales the same amount of exhaust as a .15-liter scooter engine, when in fact it puts out perhaps 2% of the exhaust volume, so that the total amount of NOx-ious (sic) exhaust gasses per passenger-mile is far lower.

—Rick

Polluter Scooters
Shouldn't the PPM outputs be shown in proportion to the total volume of exhaust gases?

i.e. at equal rpms, wouldn't 250cc engine with 1000ppm

be roughly similar to a 2500cc engine with 100ppm?

The sentence "the two-stroke scooter WW tested produced about 490 times the hydrocarbons and more than eight times the Co2 of the SUV."

should probably read

"IF THEY OUTPUT THE SAME VOLUME OF EXHAUST, the two-stroke scooter WW tested WOULD HAVE produced about 490 times the hydrocarbons and more than eight times the Co2 of the SUV."
—Querulous

Polluter Scooters
Ah yes, because you must change the oil in a 2 stroke engine... Jackass.
—jim

Polluter Scooters
Maybe test the Vespa GTS 250ie, fuel injected with emissions controls....biased "journalism" sucks
—demon larry

Polluter Scooters
I would love it if they tested more than one car/SUV and more than 3 scooters. I have a 94 Honda Elite, 4 stroke engine. I would be curious how Honda does VS Bajaj and Vespa. When it comes to cars, Hondas don't burn a lot of oil, and I know my scooter does not either...so...all in all, I think this article was a little underdone.
—Fedora

Polluter Scooters
DIAF before FSM gets his noodly appendage upon thee.
—Lambretta-is-betta

Polluter Scooters
The author (Erika-Leigh Goodwin) states that "other scooter owners proved willing to talk - until the story's angle was revealed."

Just because we asked you what your article was about does not mean that we were originally willing to be interviewed. Reporters frequently show up to our events, interview a few people, then twist our words to prove what they've already decided to be fact. A week later another reporter wonders why we're so closed off.

Look at this pseudo-scientific crap we have to put up with. I think the other commenters have done a fine job in debunking your reprehensible reporting.

I am an active local Vespa rider. I've never heard a scooterist claim that their two-stroke bike was the solution to the world's environmental problems, but this is ridiculous.

—doughnut

Polluter Scooters
I drive a Honda Metropolitan which is a 50cc four stroke motor with PCV and EGR emissions controls. I'd be very interested to see a test of one of these. Honda is known for their clean burning motors and I'm sure this one would perform outstandingly. And I get 100mpg in the Summer. Woo, hoo!
—Chris

Polluter Scooters
Jeezus, Willamette Week and Erika-Leigh Goodwin, you guys really dicked it up this time. This kind of "reporting" belongs in the Portland Mercury, not in a newspaper that the public has come to trust as being honest and accurate.

Granted, nobody is perfect, but did anybody bother to confirm and check anything in this article before publishing it? Did anybody consider that this story has MANY more sides to it than what was written?

Not only is this article inaccurate, it is flat out wrong and almost comes across as an advertisement for the two dealerships mentioned. Continuing to publish tripe like this will only serve to further erode your readership's confidence in your ability to fairly and accurately report on subjects and news Portlanders care about.

I strongly urge you assign a new reporter to accurately and thouroughly re-cover the topic, check the resulting article and then publish it post-haste.
—Dave

Polluter Scooters
So let me get this straight. Your environmentally friendly 2 stroke engine pumps a liter of atomized oil into the air in under 1000 miles and my SUV which burns NO oil but puts out low hydrocarbons and CO2 emisions is bad for the environment... Get a grip, and as for volume, did you knuckleheads ever get your car inspected, its done on a DYNO, at speed and under load, hence full volume. So if the test was done properly the numbers are the proof, volume for volume an SUV is better for the environment than a scooter. Damn environmentalist polluters...
—Jocco

Polluter Scooters
But did you take into account that Jebus drove a scooter and wanted his decipeoples the do the same. Save your sole for a dollar and reap the hell-change.
—Stango

Polluter Scooters
I wanted to thank you for your article on scooter pollution. I always suspected they polluted more than SUVs. But did you know that human breath has 5% co2, obviously contributing more to greenhouse gasses than the paltry 1% of an SUV. This nails bicyclists as the worst polluters in Portland. In fact, according to your line of reasoning, the driver of an SUV pollutes more than his vehicle. Of course, concentration is not exactly the same as quantity, but that's kind of sciency, and probably not too important. Keep up the good work.

—Matt

Polluter Scooters
A Tribeca carries up to 7 passengers and can tow up to 3,500 lbs.
—Cooter

Polluter Scooters
Umm...

How am I supposed to change the oil on a 2-stroke engine? Also, what gave you the notion that the Stella is made by Piaggio? It would also be nice if you learned that a 50cc engine puts out *significantly* less exhaust than *any* car.
—Caleb Olson

Polluter Scooters
Considering that several posters have hit the nail on the head, that is, that a tiny engine, even a dirty one, still emits less total filth than the SUV. It's time that the author posted a retraction for his blatent mis-use of statistical methods.
—scientist

Polluter Scooters
"I don't take it on ski or road trips. I don't drive it from town to town running errands. I use it for short rides. How many SUV owners only drive their SUV to the grocery store and back?"

are you serious? i would be willing to put down money that 90% of suv trips are to the store and back.

Outside of that, automobiles have had countless hours and dollars of research to make them fit into clean air laws, as opposed to scooters, which continue to be a niche market since it is so easy to make fun of the people who use them. People should just deal with the fact that a scooter isn't any better for the environment and it makes you look like Ralph the Motorcycle Mouse. If clean air is what you want, then.... bicycle, BICYCLE - I want to ride my biCYCLE i want to ride my bike...
—Malaclypse

Polluter Scooters
Sure the "parts-per-million" and percentages are higher, but what about total volume per mile? 150 cc per stroke as opposed to 3 liters... The total volume of polution is going to be higher with the SUV, and in the end that's what counts.
—Dadburns

Polluter Scooters
A poor comparison. She also hasn't mentioned the environmental effects of filtering (try doing that in an SUV). Nor was there any mention of the massive amount of environmental damage caused in manufacturing (and the subsequent disposal) a large motor vehicle when compared to a powered two wheeler.
—Steevie

Polluter Scooters
"Okay, but consider this: I can travel 300 miles on 4 gallons of fuel in a scooter, while the SUV travels 300 miles on almost 20 gallons(and that's not even counting 8-mpg Hummers!); the SUV is using 5 times as much fuel to travel the same distance, and you must multiply the emissions by the fuel inefficiency for a more accurate comparison of per-mile traveled emissions."

In other words, Scooters use less gas but pollute more?
—Gregory

Polluter Scooters
Polluter Scooters: "Even better: bicycles. No unburned hydrocarbons, but I do emit carbon dioxide as I ride."

And at an extremely high PPM. Please kill yourself or stop moving. OMG OMG OMG, the world is ending.

Get over it people.
—Shark

Polluter Scooters
On top of what everybody else said, it's not like scooter drivers are driving long distances. I am an owner of a 2005 Stella and when I ride it, I am usually only going 10 miles maximum. I don't take it on ski or road trips. I don't drive it from town to town running errands. I use it for short rides. How many SUV owners only drive their SUV to the grocery store and back?
—Renee

Polluter Scooters
The Stella is not made by Piaggio. You should have tested a new Piaggio scooter such as the Piaggio LX or the Vespa GT. The Motofino is one of many chinese branded scooters, I would be suprised if it is even legal.
—Piaggio does not make the Stella

Polluter Scooters
I think you need to read your emissions test more carefully, because it's probably CO, or carbon monoxide that is being measured, not CO2, carbon dioxide. CO2 makes up the majority of the exhaust gas of any vehicle, well above the quoted 8.6 percent from your worst offender, and the only to reduce it is to burn less fuel. Carbon monoxide is a poisonous gas that will give you a lightheaded feeling, muscle fatigue, and will kill you if you breathe enough of it, which is why people die if they sit in a closed up garage with the engine going. Because of its chemical structure it binds to the hemoglobin in your blood, which prevents the hemoglobin from carrying oxygen to the body's systems. It is largely eliminated in modern vehicles with catalyric converters, but the converters are not required on scooters the way they are on cars.

To the people comparing engine displacements, don't forget that the typical cruise RPM and maximum RPM of two-stroke engines are much, much higher than that of larger engines, and that a two stroke fires its entire rated displacement on every rotation, while four stroke engines require two rotations before the entire rated displacement has been fired.
—gearhead

Polluter Scooters
Good article, I'm going to make sure I show it to my brothers when we hang at the Harley dealership. I've known for years that these "scooter" types were up to no good. I can't even find a place to park my Harley when they're around. My mechanic says most of them work on their own bikes. Can you imagine? I for one hate grime under my fingernails. I also hear they party like rockstars. Makes me so mad I'm going to trailer my bike up to the falls.
—Rudy

Polluter Scooters
Sean said: "Your comparison should be that old 2-stroke scooter vs. a 1968 Ford Truck, not a newer engine."

Actually, they did test two new scooters against the new SUV.

"offered up for testing his more modern two-stroke, a 2005 Stella also made by Piaggio. Its levels of 1,100 ppm of unburned hydrocarbons and 7.1 percent CO2"

"WW tested—a 2006 MotoFino 150T-10D with a four-stroke engine, courtesy of Prestige Motors in Southeast Portland. The MotoFino kicked out 168 ppm of hydrocarbons and 3.1 percent CO2."

"As for the SUV, we borrowed WW publisher Richard Meeker's 2006 Subaru Tribeca. The six-cylinder engine in Meeker's SUV pumped out less than 10 ppm of hydrocarbons and 1 percent CO2."

2005 2-stroke scooter: 1,100ppm unburned hydrocarbon

2006 4-stroke scooter: 168ppm unburned hydrocarbon

2006 4-stroke SUV: 10ppm unburned hydrocarbon

—Oscar Schneegans

Polluter Scooters
Ride a bike! No pollution and it's good for you.
—Joe

EPA and scooters
I think if you search hard enough you will find that the EPA that permits new scooters on the market (and none of the cheapie chineese brands you tested) are actually well under what a Hummer or any other SUV can produce on the road...

if you need someone to help you test a New Yamaha, Honda, or Suzuki (leagl brands on the roads) you may find the number are completly different from your 1968 2 stroke scooters you tested, and beside why did you not test a bronco before they made it without a catalitic converter ?

nice try at an article too bad your reasearch department was lacking on logical contribution in your article.

—Patrick Bureau

Polluter Scooters
Not to nit-pick but Genuine Scooter Company is a good old USA company and is responsible for the Stella. LML is the Indian company that used to make the Stellas for Genuine - you know, kind of like when your Honda is sold by a Japanese company, but manufactured in Ohio. LML also made Vespas for many many years - maybe that is where the Piaggo/Stella confusion arises.

Finally, they should have tested an older model SUVs - perhaps the same year models as the scooters?
—Elle

Polluter Scooters
You should see the trail of blue smoke from my ole RZ350... now that's some hydrowhatsits.

You can all argue about what should've been tested, and what needs to be compared, but the point is the same. Maybe Cali should emission test new scooters and force them to be cleaner.
—jimbo

Polluter Scooters
I didn't know you could change the oil in a 2 stroke engine.
—Frank Rizzo

Polluter Scooters
"Nick" wrote:

"Maybe I'm nitpicking but perhaps you could look stuff up before you report it. You know, stuff you learn in journalism school. Stellas are made by an Indian company called Genuine Scooter Company. It is in no way a Piaggio company."

When it comes to fact-checking, take you own advice. Stellas are *not* made "by an Indian company called Genuine Scooter Company". Stellas are manufactured by an Indian company called LML and imported to the US by Genuine, which affixes their nameplates to them. And yes, while it's accurate that LML is no longer a part of Piaggio proper, Piaggio was instumental in the establishment and tooling of LML, and was at one time the majority shareholder.
—JF

Polluter Scooters
"two-stroke engine owners should keep their rides in tip-top shape—frequent oil changes, regular tune-ups, the whole spiel. "

You can't change the oil in a 2-stroke engine. The oil is mixed with the gas. That's what makes it a 2-stroke.

You folks might want to do a bit more fact checking before writing your next article. I'm sure your old college profs would not be impressed with some of the major mistakes in this one.

However, the point is well taken. Use cleaner burning 4-stroke engines for now and improve upon the engines in the future. Or, if you can, just ride a bike.
—

Polluter Scooters
And you were surprised that a modern computor controlled SUV produced less (by percentage) emmissions than a 2 stroke scooter? Not to mention the volumn of exhaust as mentioned by prev comments? Shouldnt you guys understand the science before performing and reporting on scientific experiments?
—buzz

Carbon Dioxide or Monoxide?
I'm almost certain that you meant C0 rather than C02 when listing the exhaust content percentage numbers. Virtually all of the exhaust should be CO2 (global warming) with trace amounts of CO (poisonous). One should also keep in mind that while the "concentration of bad stuff" numbers on scooters is higher, the total amount of exhaust is lower, which the EPA doesn't seem to reflect in anything other than it's MPG numbers. So 3.1% at 100mpg vs 1% at 16mpg .... (100/16) * 1 = 6.25... so the scoot is still emitting half the CO of the SUV per mile. HC emissions are still quite bad on scooters though.
—Bobby Digital

poor article
This is an extraordiarily poor article.

Stellas are made in India to more-or-less Vespa P-series specs, for a Chiacgo company called the Genuine Scooter Co. Thy are not made by Piaggio.

When comparing CO2 or hydrocarbon emissions, you must do so per VOLUME OF EMITTED GAS. One of my scooters gets about 80mpg, the other easily tops 90, sometimes top 100mpg. So for a given mile, at a given speed, one would a ) measure the volume of emitted gasses, and b ) measure the total amounts of offending emissions.

Doing so, scoooters win, hand-down.

Hire a research department.

—chris maytag

Polluter Scooters
"the SUV is using 5 times as much fuel to travel the same distance,"

Assuming only 1 person per vehicle.

If the SUV is carrying 5 people ... its even.
—Bruce

Polluter Scooters
"""Until we reach that harmonic convergence of scooters that are both environmentally astute and chic, two-stroke engine owners should keep their rides in tip-top shape—FREQUENT OIL CHANGES, regular tune-ups, the whole spiel."""

Change the oil on a 2 stroke engine? What a Forrest Gump statement that is; there is no oil to change it is burned with the gas - dah.
—

Polluter Scooters
Our shop, Columbia Scooters, wasnt contacted to participate in the testing. This is strange, since Columbia Scooters and Vespa Portland sell more scooters than anyone in Oregon. Plus we are long time advertisers.

It's unfortunate that the story was so poorly researched and written. It makes scooters AND Wweek look foolish.

BTW: Who's the dummy who thinks that bio-diesel/solar scooter is just round the corner?

Oh, almost forgot, if you want to do a followup article, feel free to call!
—Tim

Polluter Scooters
Many posters have also pointed out different aspects of the problem...

The real unit of measurement should be total volume of pollutants per unit of distance.

Consider: A 125cc displacement engine travelling 100 miles at 100 mpg (burning 1 gallon) vs a 5000-7000cc displacement engine travelling the same 100 miles at a mpg of at best 20 mpg (burning 4 gallons of fuel)

You're absolutely correct that per unit volume of exhaust the 2-stroke is worse than a 4-stroke, however, you have to consider that the SUV is more than 40 times the displacement and gets less than one fifth of the fuel milage of the scooter.

Considering that - the scooter is way better for the environment, without considering all of the other positive consequences of all operating smaller vehicles (ex: easier parking and less traffic congestion)
—Woot

Polluter Scooters
Ok, first, you must mean Carbon MONOXIDE , not dioxide. All combustion of gasoline produces CO2 (the dioxide). It's poor combustion that makes CO (the monoxide)

Second, that's parts per million, a ratio. It's not total moles (grams, pounds, etc.) of hydrocabons per hour, a much more meaningful measure of pollution and it's effect on ozone. The parts per million was a dodge the big car makers demanded so their big gas guzzling engines wouldn't be penalized more than small gas saving engines
—Crusty Curmudgeon

Polluter Scooters
Poorly written, poorly researched article, as pointed out by many of the more scientifically-literate people in the previous posts, especially regarding "ppm" vs. actual grams of pollutant.
—rikdanger

Polluter Scooters
Solution: Get a real f*#ckin' motorbike ya bunch of candy ass mofo's!
—damnbiker

Polluter Scooters
the question that needs to be answered is: "does the emissions testing gear take displacement into account to normalize the results". This is typical since the same gear has to differentiate between a 1.5 liter subcompact and a 7 liter truck/suv. Exhaust volume is an issue, but you can generate more emissions with a 100cc 2-stroke in poor/average shape, than with a 3 liter SUV with computer control, tight tolerances, and a catalytic converter. n the fce I don't see these results as being out of the ballpark for normalized emissions levels, but you don't see much on scooter emissions.
—pete

Polluter Scooters
I think someone at WW might've been following a little too closely behind Meeker's SUV - the fumes are going to your heads. Can you seriously think for one second that a scooter, any scooter, has a greater detrimental impact on the environment than an SUV? Come on. And who is this Erika-Leigh Goodwin, anyway? Her name doesn't appear anywhere in your staff box. Does she sell cars?
—jill

Polluter Scooters
Well, the inevitable happened and I'm glad it did.

The increased scrutiny we are seeing towards scooters (safety, cleanliness, etc.) is a positive thing...it is just another signal that scooters are gaining visibility and finally becoming more mainstream. I agree that the older 2-strokes are nasty and I don't think that they should even be putting them in weed-eaters and go-karts anymore. I have a new 4-stroke scooter, but I only purchased it after I determined that the newest electrics still don't quite meet my needs. I'm hopeful that next year's models will have the speed I need to keep up with the traffic on my commute. Failing that, I think that consumers SHOULD be clamoring for improved scooter emissions the same way that we have been for our automobiles. (But, I still think we're greener than the SUV's!)
—Matt

Polluter Scooters
Oh my god. I was near apoplectic by the end of this article. Are you trolling ? Please say yes. Play this off as "oh we were just trying to get a rise out of you guys and boost our readership" or something like that. The alternative - that you are actually that dense is too depressing.
—carlos

Polluter Scooters
I've been writing a long time, and I haven't seen many articles make it to the light of day with this degree of bias. Apples to apples! A '68 scooter against the modern technology in a 2005 passenger vehicle isn't a valid comparison by *anyone's* yardstick.
—A writer with training and ethics = no bias

Polluter Scooters
Another question is: At 100mpg for the scooter, and 16mpg for the SUV, How's the scooter factor with all the processing and transport pollution needed to get gas from the middle east to PDX? Since the scooter is filling up roughly 1/5 as much the SUV, global emissions are going to be less for the scooter.
—Bocephus

Polluter Scooters
Oh, well I'll go trade in my scooter for an SUV now because I'm a treehugger.
—Fark You

Polluter Scooters
This is typical of what passes for analytical, scientific journalism today. Previous comments already speak to innaccuracies and poor scientific method used in the article that basically make the whole thing contrived filler. References to being "environmentally astute" and "chic," whatever that means, tells you everything you need to know about the trendy hipster who wrote this article.
—Oot Greet

pseudoscience and irresponsible "journalism"
Your article (Polluter Scooters) is irresponsible and misleading.

As several people have already correctly pointed out, the total output per mile or per time unit should be measured and NOT the concentration of pollution per volume of exhaust gas. There is a HUGE difference in total volume outputs from a 0.15 liter engine and a 4 (or more!) liter engine leading to a HUGE difference in total pollution output for every mile driven by a small cycle and a large truck.

It is this kind of pseudoscience "journalism" that is contributing to the rising levels of scientific illiteracy in this country and many others. As science education has declined over the years, the public depends (wrongly) more and more on people like you for correct and usable information. People like you are a large part of what is wrong with America today.

Tomorrow in this paper I will expect to see a complete explanation of the poor scientific method used in this article, as well as a retraction of the irresponsible, unstated, implication that small vehicles are producing more polution than large ones. After this retraction is printed, please just STFU , quit your job writing, and go back to doing something more suited to your level of education.

Yes I WOULD like fries with that, thank you.

—an actual pissed off scientist

Polluter Scooters
And if you try testing the latest 2 strokes available by the worlds leading scooter manufacturers you'll see they run cleaner than most 4 strokes, try the Gilera Runner PureJet, Aprilia SR DiTech etc, fuel injected "clean" 2 strokes

A 1968 Vespa is hardly a fair comparison, neither is some cheap chinese copy scooter, this article is VERY biased towards them
—Kye

pseudoscience and irresponsible "journalism"
Your article (Polluter Scooters) is irresponsible and misleading.

As several people have already correctly pointed out, the total output per mile or per time unit should be measured and NOT the concentration of pollution per volume of exhaust gas. There is a HUGE difference in total volume outputs from a 0.15 liter engine and a 4 (or more!) liter engine leading to a HUGE difference in total pollution output for every mile driven by a small cycle and a large truck.

It is this kind of pseudoscience "journalism" that is contributing to the rising levels of scientific illiteracy in this country and many others. As science education has declined over the years, the public depends (wrongly) more and more on people like you for correct and usable information. People like you are a large part of what is wrong with America today.

Tomorrow in this paper I will expect to see a complete explanation of the poor scientific method used in this article, as well as a retraction of the irresponsible, unstated, implication that small vehicles are producing more polution than large ones. After this retraction is printed, please just quit your job writing, and go back to doing something more suited to your level of education.

Yes I WOULD like fries with that, thank you.

—an actual scientist

Polluter Scooters
Wait... you folks were expecting unbiased reporting? Has that ever happened before?

Fark away folks.
—D-Man

Polluter Scooters
Based on the (accurate) comments made below I would hope that Willy Week would retract this article. It's ludicrously full of bias, fuzzy math, and flat out mistakes. ERIKA-LEIGH GOODWIN should really be ashamed of herself. I know I'd be embarrased to have my name associated with something so obviously bad.
—Bad JuJu

Polluter Scooters
You folks aren't measuring what you think that you're measuring. Parts per million is the fraction of the total exhaust that is pollution; it doesn't tell you how much pollution is being generated. Why not? The total exhaust of a scooter is significantly smaller than the total exhaust of a car.

Suppose that a car had 100x the total exhaust of a scooter. If half of the scooter exhaust was pollution, it would half the pollution of a car which only put out 1% pollution. (100 * 1% = 1. 1 * 50% = 0.5)

This is why pollution standards are in grams per mile, not parts per million.
—Andy Freeman

Polluter Scooters
"One of Fitzgibbons' customers, Shayne Weinstein, offered up for testing his more modern two-stroke, a 2005 Stella also made by Piaggio"

Maybe I'm nitpicking but perhaps you could look stuff up before you report it. You know, stuff you learn in journalism school. Stellas are made by an Indian company called Genuine Scooter Company. It is in no way a Piaggio company.
—Nick

Polluter Scooters
Ouch! How about we do some simple math and "compare apples to apples" to answer the question posed in the article title? If a gallon of gasoline basically burns to a standard volume of gases every time and we just use the performance data presented on faith, then the scooter travels 100 miles by burning 1 gallon of gas and the SUV burns 6.25 gallons of gas to go the same 100 miles. The hydrocarbon data is in parts per million (ppm) and is the number of molecules of all "bad" hydrocarbons ratioed against the total number of all molecules that get spewed out the exhaust ( which includes water and CO2). If you burn 6.25 more gallons of gas, you are going to give off 168 ppm x 6.25 = 1050 versus the scooter's 1100 for the same amount of time to reach a destination if you travel the same speed. The scooter and SUV have similar hydrocarbon output to me. As for the higher CO2 value for the SUV - THAT IS A GOOD THING. It is better to breath in CO2 (you know, that stuff that trees give off from thier respiration cycle) instead of hydrocarbons which react with ozone and form smog. Answer: better to breath the air behind the SUV.
—Jay M.

Polluter Scooters
LOL!!!

(sorry, i just had to laugh. i think all the other posts summed it up.)
—the dude

Polluter Scooters
I own a 2005 Stella and want to clarify something first: The Stella was made by a company called LML, which is in India. LML was contracted by Piaggio to build Vespas for a few years, but is not anymore. An American company, Genuine Scooter Co., out of Chicago, contracted LML in 2002 to build replicas of the P-series Vespa, and imported them as the Stella. The same scooter is sold in India as the NV; in the UK and elsewhere as the Star; and in Australia and New Zealand as the Belladonna.

Now, all that aside, let's talk about emissions. I’ll just recap the great points made by others – the testing by WW measured parts-per-million, but exhaust volume must also be considered. Larger engines put out much more exhaust per mile. While this does not make my scooter better than a Subaru B9, it probably looks much more environmentally-friendly when compared to larger SUVs such as Hummers, Tahoes, Expeditions, etc. There is also the advantage of fuel mileage. My scooter gets about five times the mileage of a Chevrolet Tahoe. So, more pollution, but less dependency on oil – there is a trade-off. I also appreciate the abilities to bypass traffic congestion and to park just about anywhere, as well as the low purchase price and the perma-grin on my face, even at work!

Yeah, I’ll keep riding my scooter, and while it would be nice to be pumping out less pollution, I make up for that in other ways…
—jeremyseattle

Polluter Scooters
From the Author:

Sofa King

I em Sofa King

We Todd Ed

From Roberto:

Everyone alive is a murderer who has not killed anyone yet. Try and be a responsible journalist lady! Your facts are so out of context it is unbelievable.

Duh, gee tennesee, which way did he go?!?!?
—Roberto Colannino

Polluter Scooters
The Tribeca SUV puts out about 10-20 times the exhaust gas volume per mile compared to the 150cc 4-stroke scooter, so ends up putting out more total unburned hydrocarbons and significantly more c02 (5-10x)... so the scooter still wins with lower pollution and greenhouse gases.

If the scooter used fuel injection, EGR valve, PCV valve, variable valve timing, O2 sensors, and catalytic convertors like modern cars, it would be even cleaner (closer to the relative difference in exhaust volume).
—Kory

Polluter Scooters
"two-stroke engine owners should keep their rides in tip-top shape—frequent oil changes,regular tune-ups, the whole spiel." The oil is either injected or mixed with the fuel on two strokes. I've been dancing with internal combustion engines for 35 years..I have yet to see an oil drain plug on a two stroke engine. This used to be a joke in mechanic circles. Perhaps the author should stick to "green" gardening articles. Obviously, the internal workings of an internal combustion engine of any sort must be a mystery to the writer.
—Gearbear88

Polluter Scooters
If you took into consideration the size of the engines and the speed at which they turn over, plus the number of exhaust strokes per revolution, you would have had a useful comparison, such as the one below:

Liters of Liters of

Hydrocarbons Carbon Dioxide

per Minute per Minute

1968 Piaggio Grand Turismo 2.940 51.60

Subaru Tribeca 0.030 30.00

MotoFino 0.050 9.30

Piaggio Stella 0.660 18.60

The 38 year old Grand Turismo does the worst on every count. The Motofino puts out 0.05 liters of hydrocarbons per minute (at an assumed 50mph) compared to the catalytic converter equiped, computer controlled Subaru's 0.03 liters. Both of the modern scooters, however, put out significantly less carbon dioxide than the Subaru. If it's global warming we're worried about, the modern (particularly 4 stroke) scooter is the way to go. Such is the folly of focusing on parts per million and percent CO2 rather than actual total output of CO2 and hydrocarbons. The scooter does much better when looked at in this way.

—Francis P. Ferguson

Polluter Scooters
Well, to answer your original question, Erika:

What's worse: breathing the fumes of an SUV or a two-stroke scooter?

AN SUV
—Miguelito

Polluter Scooters
In whose book is a Subaru Tribeca an SUV?

It's a car with four wheel drive.

Why didn't you test a Hummer or Escalade or Armada?
—tk

Polluter Scooters
So when does "WW publisher Richard Meeker" get an F and a solid kick in the ass for green-lighting such a poorly researched article? Oh, did you say never? Oh ok. I get it. This "publication" is a joke.

Way to rev up the scooter community - This has made the rounds on every board I read and we're all laughing at you.
—

Polluter Scooters
10% of 100 UNITS(of anything) is less than 1% of 1500 UNITS(of the same thing). PPM is a percentage of something, not a volume or weight (UNIT). I pretty much can't believe you made this big of a mistake in a research experiment such as this. I also can't believe you stated a Stella is made by Piaggio (one more step in discrediting any "research" you claim to have done), and that testing a 1968 2 stroke would prove anything (especially when you didn't test a 1968 automobile for comparison).
—Andrew

Polluter Scooters
Even better: bicycles. No unburned hydrocarbons, but I do emit carbon dioxide as I ride.

And probably a bit of methane too. Particularly if you've been eating spicy foods or had a few beers.
—Pelle Schultz

Polluter Scooters
Nick says: "Maybe I'm nitpicking but perhaps you could look stuff up before you report it. You know, stuff you learn in journalism school. Stellas are made by an Indian company called Genuine Scooter Company. It is in no way a Piaggio company."

Perhaps Nick should look stuff up, too. The Stella is made by an Indian company called LML. They are imported to the US by the Genuine Scooter Company, based in Chicago. If you're going to get nitpicky, make sure you do your homework.
—Todd

Even if my new scooter (which I love) put out a higher percentage of hydrocarbons per gallon of gas burned than an SUV, I get 10 to 20 times more MILES PER GALLON than the friggen monster truck. Hence, I burn less gas and produce less exhaust than the SUV for each mile I ride.

The idea that a smaller vehicle is more wasteful than a larger gas guzzler is just stupid.

80 MPG rocks. 8 MPG sucks.

my farts pollute more than a scooter

ERIKA-LEIGH GOODWIN - Your are Fuckin Stupid!

Yeah, this article sucks, but all the comments referring to WW's "research department" are cracking me up. Research department? Sorry, but if such a thing existed, what exactly would the reporter's job be?

Also, Ms. Goodwin (or the WW editors) opted to not include the bio-diesel scooter project we've been working on at the shop which Patrick discussed with her in detail during the interview (the very same scooter she "fumed" about (*ouch - I'm known for bad puns you know...)

www.ptownscooters.com/projects.htm#...

She also didn't ask us about testing any of our new scooters, such as the Daelim History 125cc 4-stroke, the CPI GTR 150cc 4-stroke or the MadAss

49cc 4-stroke which comes pretty restricted in the stock setup - you can barely hear the engine run. I can't imagine the MadAss pumps out many unburned hydrocarbons.

My search around the net was unable to turn-up the March 2005 EPA study she references and I have not contacted the EPA directly for a copy; however, here is a link to their March 2005 Enforcment Alert:

www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/roadbike/22-s...

If this is the source of her study, well, ummm, I didn't go to journalism school, but this notice is to warn the public about import bikes NOT meeting minimum EPA/DOT emmissions requirements.

Jim Smith, co-owner

Ptown Scooters

I have several issues with this article and it does deserve to be rewritten with a better understanding of the issues involved.

Wikipedia has a page on 2-strokes:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-stroke

The 2-strokes we are talking about have no oil crankcase and no oil to change.

The 2-strokes of this category can use oil premixed into their fuel or can use the more modern method of oil injection. Oil injection will typically be at a ratio of 50:1 fuel:oil. There are synthetic 2-stroke oils designed to run at the very lean ratio of 100:1 (Amsoil) and this is much cleaner.

A 50cc engine is a 0.05 liter engine. There are legal reasons this size is popular for a 2-stroke. For instance, It is legal to operate a sub-50cc scooter without a motorcycle license...

Because the 2-stroke engine is more powerful for its size and weight than a 4-stroke it is almost required for such small displacement vehicles to be even marginally safe on the road. Scooters, especially 50cc scooters are at the bottom of the food chain when it comes to traffic. Bicycles often have their own lanes and paths across bridges which are not legal for scooters to use.

If we want to limit the number of new 2-strokes in our cities we should perhaps revise the laws reserving benefits to the sub-50cc category. My suggestion is that a 4-stroke allowance of 100cc would go a long way toward moving the market away from the 2-stroke. This is a very positive advocacy position to take here with regard to the environment.

The 2-stroke does deserve it's reputation as a "not so clean" engine. It is used in chainsaws, leaf blowers, and weedeaters also. Great improvements are being made in cleanliness. Still, it would be great to be able to operate a 100cc 4-stroke with the same legal benefits as the 50cc class now enjoys.

Also, from the environmental standpoint, looking at the embodied energy and life-cycle costs of a SUV versus a 2-stroke scooter - or any scooter would show a profound difference.

It looks like the H3 Hummer has a common engine size of 3.7 liters with the H2 Hummer at 6.0 liters (brief look on Google). With single occupancy (very common), displacement per passenger mile is quite profound. The 6 liter H2 engine is 120 times larger than the 50cc scooter. The 3.7 liter H3 engine is 74 times larger.

These large SUV engines illustrate the "fatness" of our vehicles - doing less with more. The scooter is all about doing more with less - perhaps even with less war per mile.

This is just the kind of reporting that will be the downfall of what was once a quality news-rag. I'm sorry if I weep for the children of a generation which knows no science, and only hears the call of the politically correct goddess.

In other news: Yes, two stroke engines are more polluting than four stroke engines. This has been known for sixty/seventy years. It's only relevant if you compare similar sized engines under similar conditions.

Also, small displacement engines with small cylinders tend to have fast burning combustion chambers that burn more efficiently- producing fewer emissions.

Learn. Read. Think. Educate yourself.

I hope this was just an innocent case of poor scientific comprehension while the editor was on vacation.

If it was an intentional distortion of the facts then shame on you! It is the type of disinformation (LIES) I find so disturbing in public discussion today.

I'm still going to take my Suburban on the family campouts, little Toyota to work & my scooter around the city.

My non-running scooter put out 0 emissions!

What all of you libtard scooter riding idiots fail to see is that the scooters displacement (thats a volume) is 50cc or .05 Liters or 1/100 the size of my SUV engine. Even though my SUV is blowing 100x the volume through the system, your crappy combuston is still contributing 10x the amount of NOx per liter of gas that my 5 liter engine that can seat 8 AND pull a 10,000 camper. So on a NOx ppm/cc per person*mile (or pound*mile) your scooter is clearly more of a polluter than the run of the mill SUV.

Yes,

I know it should not FEEL that way but this is not about FEELING, it is about math and engineering and you and that guy that claims he invented the internet (LOL) Al Gore should just STFU and address the real problems we have.

Before you answer I bet you $5 you mom and dad (or Dad's for most of you) dont even share the last name.

/For whatever reason or the other.

//Just guessing...

///freaks

Actually, this is why 2 stroke engines are getting phased out. But I dispute the scientific process you followed for this article, to term it "junk science" is an insult to science still..

Figures like total emissions per kilometre would be more useful, as taking the extremes: the SUV pumping out 10,000 times the volume of exhaust.. Parts per million is fairly useless in this examination if not combined with volume of exhaust to get the total output of the various nasties.. I could quite easily "fix" the problem with the parts per million by attaching a fan to the back of the exhaust to mix in more air to decrease the parts per million figures.. Though that doesn't change the total output of bad stuff..

Also useful would be the total energy cost (and corresponding CO2/sulfur emissions) of making the vehicle.

Fact is that bikes (scooters or motorbikes) use a lot less petrol, have a lot less mass getting carried around per passenger. Garbage like this article is just misinformation when the goal of the article is purely to lend legitimacy to SUVs and mis-represent data..

Come back when you've:

a) compared current models, mid age, old age with current, mid age, old car models

b) factored in emission volume per distance rather than ppm.

c) worked cost of manufacture/lifecycle pollution/energy costs

d) compared not just SUVs,

Man, you guys are such idiots.

Even if the SUV is a 10mpg honker and the scooter is a 100mpg machine, it doesn't make up for the difference.

Just stand around an old Vespa or a new SUV. Which one can you smell/see/coat-your-hand-with?

What's so hard to believe about a vehicle with extremely advanced emissions controls and multiple catalysts putting out fewer pollutants than an open pipe on the end of a lawnmower engine?

I love scooters, and I think that they make a lot of financial sense. That doesn't have to mean that they magically pollute less. An 80's Civic is a lot lighter and smaller than an H3, so it pollutes less, right? Oh, whoops, no. How about a Civic from the early '90s? Oh! Surprise! No.

We've made a lot of advancements in emission regulations in the past 30 years, and they're applied to cars more restrictively than other vehicles (boats, large trucks, scooters, etc). Try to be objective for a moment and consider that, despite non-scientific testing methodologies, the point of the article might actually be spot on.

Polluter Scooters

Solution: Get a real f*#ckin' motorbike ya bunch of candy ass mofo's!

—damnbiker

Well, I suppose a redneck f-cktard was bound to chime in sooner or later...

Idiot.

To sum up...yes, a really seriously poor ill-researched pile of BS.

24 gallons at $3.24 vs 1.89 gallons at $3.24? HAHAHAHA

Simple economics! I'll take my scoot and buy groceries with my savings!!!

OK. as a vintage scooter rider I am honestly biased. That said, I feel that there are so few running vintage scooters in the US compared to the millions of large poor fuel economy vehicles that are driven every day that is is stupid to even compare. The pollution to the enviroment from the manufacture of new vehicles is probably more in one day than all the vintage scooters in the US make in a year. Another point to bring up is YES the newer cheap four stroke scooters and motorcycles being imported from countries like China and sold by Wal-Mart, Pep Boys, Sams Club etc need to have way stricter emissions and safety standards.

I find it ironic that the author choose the Tribeca seeing that is was reclassified as a "Light Truck" so they wouldn't have to bump their CAFE avg. The Tribeca is just a taller uglier Outback. It is by no means a functional truck or SUV....

-GC

Um at 490x the emissions, you're still riding a dirtier device than the SUV. You point out accurately that the SUV uses more fuel and thus puts out a greater volume of exhaust, but it doesn't put out 490 TIMES more exhaust. Your scooter pollutes more than an SUV even given the difference in exhuast volume.

If all this was about was fuel efficiency, then you've got a reason to ride your scooter - but your claim is always that you're helping the environment and the evil SUV is destroying it. Burning or not burning gasoline doesn't do anything for or against the environment, it's the exhaust that is potentially harmful.

And as the tests demonstrated, on the kind of scooter most people can afford and drive - not the super zowie expensive foreign special scooter or the biodiesel scooter of the future - is worse, not better for the environment.

Actually if you study it in greater detail you'll find that overall, because of costs and factory time involved in making specialized parts, the SUV is more environmentally friendly than the Prius - because the Prius AT PRESENT requires more specialized engineering and parts, thus requiring more time at the factory to make.

The 490 time comparison was between a 1968 2-stroke scooter and a new Suburu. If you compare the new 2-stroke scooter and the new Suburu, you have a more honest comparison. The PPM for the scooter IS higher, but it's about 100 times the HC concentration - not 500 times. Which would make the TOTAL emissions about the same. The total emissions per mile for the 4 stroke are about 1/10th the Suburu.

What many folks here pointed out is that the 500 times quote was one which blatently compares apples to watermelons.